I want everyone to know that you are a guru, you are the man behind so many incredible artists, creators, and the brain that you have has been able to upset lots of people to think critically about different ways of life, meaning in our industry, in the music industry, obviously you've been working in it for such a long time, being, be it a manager, be it a business partner, being an investor, but I feel like you push all of us as content creators to do better. When you, when we're talking about the media and knowing how impactful it is, how is it working with Joe? You guys are partners, right? And obviously we see Joe, you know, he's always trending. So how has it been for you? Did it make you realize even more the power behind media? Yes. Yeah. Joe, working with Joe is amazing. He is so abrasive, so fearless. And sometimes in the media world, that lands us in such hot water. It really does. Yeah. But it's also encouraged me to stop giving a what everyone thinks. And that's been a superpower for us. I feel like people want perfection, but there is no such thing. And you don't get better just floating along. Oh, everything's perfect. You kind of need to fall on your ass a couple of times to go, I could have done that better. I could have tweaked this. I could have put more attention and time and energy into this piece that I do. And I like failing because I realize it opens my eyes to things I missed the first time. Whenever anything works too fast, I feel like I miss out on an opportunity to learn something. And I know that sounds corny, but it's so true. So I like failing. I like failing because it makes me sharper than the person who it works for the first time. I don't have a favorite per se, but I love working with DJ Premier because he is the most down to earth artist person that I work with. He is the most frustrating too. Okay, so Ian, do we need a formal just introduction? Well, okay, we don't have to do whatever you want. Actually, I don't really care. I want everyone to know that you are a guru. You are the man behind so many incredible artists, creators, and the brain that you have has been able to upset lots of people to think critically about different ways of life, meaning in our industry, in the music industry, obviously, you've been working in it for such a long time, being, be it a manager, be it a business partner, being an investor. But I feel like you push all of us as content creators to do better. And I think sometimes people can't handle it. So here we are. I like that. Yeah. That's a better intro than a formal intro. You like that? Yes, I do. Okay, good. Because I think I do piss a lot of people off. But I think it's okay. I think when you're a visionary, not everybody's going to agree with you. Actually, most people aren't going to agree with you. And you know what, too, it's not hate. You're just critiquing. Like you can get feedback, but depending on how the person receives it, like you're not doing it in an ill way. Never. I never have any mal intent with anything I say. You just want it to be better. It's my observation. Yeah. Some people just take it and, I don't know, they critique it and turn it into this whole A thesis. Yeah, like this is what he's doing and thinking and f**k him and this and I'm like, I didn't mean any of that. Right. It was just my observation on what you're doing. I think there's a better way. Has there ever been a situation where someone comes up to you and is like, Hey, here's a business plan that I have, right? Ian, I really want to partner with you. I want you to manage me. Yes. And here's my game plan. And then you have to turn them down. And you can't work with them for whatever reason. And what was the worst case scenario that's happened for you, where you had to turn someone down and not work with them? First of all, to answer that question. Yes. That's kind of the norm. People coming up to me, presenting me with their most fabulous pitches, their best ideas. You got to hear this is the quote. You got to see this. I'm the next thing and I'm flattered. It's humbling to hear those things. But there's only so much time in a day. And my response is something that's true to me, which is if I get involved in any project, I want to have the bandwidth to actually participate and add value to it. I don't just like being a part of something because I have the capability of being a part of something. There's been so many people that I've wanted to work with that have in my most recent years, wanted to now work with me too. And because I don't want to give them a half ass effort, I don't want to go into specific names because I don't want to make them look a certain way. However, these are people that I'm a fan of professionally and I would love to work with them. But even their pitches to me now, they just don't work out for whatever the reason. Maybe I don't have the time or the bandwidth to take them on as a client or I really don't believe in what they're doing right now. And I think a lot of people and professionals in our business look at me like I'm the solution to their problems. And that's something that's kind of turned me off from working with people I used to want to work with. They're like, oh no, he could help me make money as opposed to he'd be a great person I want to collaborate with. They look at me like I'm the answer to their financial woes. And I'm not. I mean, maybe I am for the people that I've had success with. But I think that image, that I built this image that I can help you earn money. And that's not the only quality that I want people to focus on when they're considering working with me. Yeah. What do you think is the number one biggest mistake that people make when trying to pitch a business idea? The biggest mistake I think people make is they haven't even tried to put it into action themselves. So they're sitting there putting all their attention and time into making this elaborate plan, this elaborate pitch deck to bring and make it sound and look good. But they haven't put it into action yet. So they're really pitching you a concept. They're not pitching you a business that's already working at a certain level and they want you to help enhance it. They're pitching you a concept that has no proof of concept. Right. And so that's the biggest mistake. They put all their energy into this theory as opposed to putting energy and resources into bringing it to life. And to me, that's the biggest mistake I see day to day. Do you have a preference with your work day, for example, early morning, you like to work on XYZ then afternoon? Do you have like a certain way you practice how you function every day? I'm just very curious because you work with big personalities. Sure. Different people. And I'm sure that doesn't even include investment and other business stuff that you work on. How do you break your day up? And you said that it doesn't stop, 24-7. It really is. I'm going to have to talk to your wife about this. We're going to have to figure out how to balance your life. She knows all the dark sides of this business. Oh, yes. Because I even I listened to you guys talk and I saw a clip where you were referencing Colin needing to turn off the phone when he's focusing on things. You know, like I need to be able to reach you. Absolutely. We have a family. Absolutely. This is important. With me, I suffer from the reverse, which is I have an issue shutting it off. So when I'm trying to have personal time with my wife, I have constant interferences, which I in my my unmarried brain says, Oh, who cares boundaries? That's how you got here. That's right. That's how I made it. Yes. However, however, I have a wife that I love very much and she's supportive of me and she deserves my undivided attention. Yes. That's right. So there we go. So I battle with that balance and I'm very bad with balance. Oh, that's terrible. I'm terrible. I'm a workaholic. Yes. So you don't have a this time I'm not answering any calls. No, but I have schedule. I can give you. Okay. Okay. Back to the message. Yeah. Okay. Let's circle back to the question. Yeah. My day usually starts around five thirty or six a.m. Let's go. All right. I'm up early. I don't not because I'm like, let's get to where I cannot. That's when I get up. My body wakes me up at five thirty or six in the morning. And because she sleeps like a princess and I don't want to wake her. My first thought is get my body moving. I go run at the gym. I go on the treadmill. I hit the sauna. Very basic. Keep the blood flowing. And then right after that, I go into responding to emails. I used to hate when no one knew who I was and they wouldn't respond to my emails. Yeah. And so I think an effect of that is I get up and I'm the first one before anyone's awake. I respond to all the emails that are on my desk. And I like to be the first email that my clients, partners and vendors and people we're working with see my name first because I just really didn't like the way it felt not to get responses from people I wanted to work with. And then after that, when the clients I have wake up, call it eight o'clock in the morning, even earlier seven, I'm on the phone with Joe and premiere between seven and eight a.m. Then I start my calls. We have a catch up. We kind of go over the day and week at large because it's like a healthy way to keep yourself on track. Every day? Every single day. I talk to everybody I work with. Katrina, you need to work harder. I'm so sick of your s***. Nessa, I talk to you every day too. No, no, no. Saturdays and Sundays? 7 a.m. or no? Not 7 a.m. She doesn't even get back to me until 10 a.m. So you're the hustler. I'm not saying you're not Katrina. Katrina, who's the hustler here? Nessa's the hustler. I am. I'm the hustler in the afternoon. You're the afternoon hustler. On an afternoon shift. What the f***? That's what happened. Are you kidding me? I would be so frustrated with you, Katrina. Yes, Ian, this is just a glimpse of this s***. I would be veins out of my neck. Where is she? Where is she? Where is she? I'm getting PTSD right now, guys. Come on, come on. Every day. Okay, but go on. Okay, so you have this call every day to set the tone what we expect. So how does this conversation work? Hey, this is what we're working on or deadlines or whatever it is. I keep a rolling list of business deals, strategies, plans we have for each of my clients, a literal physical list, not on my phone, on paper that's at my house. And I highlight it with different color codes to say here's where we are in the process, just starting in contract or finished. And I then reference those things based on the priority order of it to the people I'm working with, my clients or my partners. Here's the thing. In our business, if you're not structured, if you don't have organization, there's no one to keep you organized. It's not like a nine to five corporate job where you have people to answer to. I answer to myself and my clients and partners. So if I'm not organized, I could tell you this. This isn't dissing any of the artists I work with, but organization is not their best craft or skill. Art is. So if I'm not the image and or reference point they have for how to be organized, it's a mess. It's a mess. I mean that honestly. So I go into that call and then after the call, I make my rounds. I start visiting, literally going to the houses, studios of the clients I have. Wow. And that's my better half of my afternoon. And then I usually have physical meetings in one of my production facilities in Queens or clients that we have and I do those rounds. And then I come home and between the five and seven time is when I get time with my wife to go take a walk to the park. I mean, literally we go take a walk, we talk, we watch some TV. And then I get interrupted again with calls, which I don't mind. It's like the seven to nine. Time frame, unless I'm watching Vanderpump rules with my wife or 600 pound life. Dr. Nowazari, I'm like a big TLC fan or pimple popping. All right, Dr. Pimple Popper. Yeah, we're with it. All of that. Thousand pound sisters. Let's go. I know these are sick fetish shows, but this is what I like. Hey, whatever helps you get through the day. That's it. That's it. And so that and then, you know, my nighttime panic calls come in from different clients of mine that, what about this? And did you do it? And then we put that to rest and then I go to sleep. And then I start my day all over again, but it's pretty much a 6am to 10pm marathon. I love it. And I have my partner, Keeb, who's my eyes and ears. I wouldn't be able to function without him. Same for my wife, just keeping me normal, somewhat normal, because my brain, if it wasn't for her, if it wasn't for Keeb and some other people of my team, I would work 24 hours a day. I mean it. Like I would sleep three or four hours a night and I just would not stop. I'm with you. And it's been like this since you started your career? Yes, because I wouldn't have made it anywhere if I didn't put in that time to begin with. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Do you agree? Yes. 100%. No one would be working with me professionally if I didn't put in that extra time. That's right. I had to work hard because there was no nepotism with me. There was no, here's an introduction. I had to fight and claw and bust my ass to get anyone to notice what my ideas were or what my strengths were. So I have like this, I don't know. I guess I almost feel like if I stop, it's going to fall apart. I think that's how my brain works. I don't know. Yeah. You guys have the same kind of brain. Absolutely. You guys have the same kind of brain. And what does your brain say? My brain is like right now. Your brain says nothing? Nothing. This is Katrina right now. Aren't you jealous of that, Nessa? I'm so, I wish, I wish I could just be that. I could turn it off. Lucy, I'll turn it off right now. She could turn it off right now. If you just said, hey, Katrina, tap out right now. Go. You're like, okay. So hold on. Katrina, I have a question. Yes. The way you asked me about my schedule, what does your day start like? Great question. Oh, you did. Okay. Expound. What's great about this is I just made my workflow recently. Okay. Where I've time blocked. So this is great because you can critique my time block. You just time blocked my life. Yeah. On to you. So I start my day. Hold on. I'm going to pull it up. Pull it up. I'm going to pull it up. And how long have you known me? I've known Nessa for almost 15 years now. And I just want you to know she just discovered. I did just discover it. How to schedule her day. I just, I just formally written it out. It's new. It's not new. I just formally written it out. Formally written out. Because you know what she had it here. So basically my day starts at nine. My day starts at nine. Starts. Starts at nine. Meaning eyes open. Oh no, not eyes open. Eyes open at eight, eight thirty. And then I'm already ready. Computer in front of me. Answering emails and checking off to do things. That's nine. Go on, go on. Because I'm going to, I'm going to. That's nine to ten. Then from ten to about twelve thirty. So this changes every day. But I do pod stuff. So I'll either work on social clips. I'll work on guests. I'll work on, research. Things like that. That's good. So that goes from nine to twelve thirty. Congratulations. Keep going. I was giving you my whole playbook right now. I'm giving you my whole playbook right now. Then after that, we move on to Hot 97 stuff. Because Nessa's on Hot 97. Which I love too. That show looks great too. Sounds great. So whatever that entails. Meaning what are we talking about that day? Okay. What is going on in the news? Why don't you tell them who really sends you everything? Me. Send her name is Nessa. And she has an ongoing, she has an ongoing notepad. However, I still will help supplement the stories. I will check over the story. We'll get the facts all written in. Because we like to dig. We dig. And I got to make sure the facts are actually research and fact check. Yeah. Like I'm not just going to. Oh, this is the headline. No, it's not just the headline. Yeah. We do our due diligence. Because we have a responsibility to our listeners. And you want to be putting out the highest quality. Absolutely. Keep it tight. Then it's time to go to Hot 97. Okay. And then her show. Physically. Physically. We're doing our syndicated show. Okay. Nessa's show. So I'm there for the next few hours and we're recording. We're just banging it out. Editing, audio. Nessa, why are you hating on her? She just gave me a full nine to seven day. No. That was great, right? Sounds like a, is this, is there fluff in there? It's fluff. It's not fluff. It's fluff. It's, Nessa and I were doing a lot of stuff. So there's a lot of stuff in there. Nessa has some. Wait, did you see her face? Yeah. You cannot trust this face right now. You can trust this face. There's a lot of stuff in there. It's like this sweet, cute face. Oh, I'm going to drive her back. I am. Then why don't you get back to me when I write you? So here's where actually I need your help. Okay. So how do you prioritize your time blocks, right? So I'm trying to be true to my time block so I can hit my marks, right? Like, oh, I got to edit these three clips. I've allowed myself two hours to edit these clips that I need to get done by today. But then Nessa will hit me up like, oh, we need to do this, this and that. Yes. So here's my question now. Okay. I'm listening. How do I prioritize in my day when something comes up? Right. As well as kind of, you know, making sure that we're all good on the team end. So if Nessa's like, yo, got to get this done now. Okay. So what do we do there? Like, do you have like the red alert? I'll tell you what I think you should do. I think people's biggest downfall is giving themselves more time than they need to complete tasks. So they bake in this like lax time. Like, for example, you just said, I have two hours to edit three clips when in reality, it probably won't take you two hours, but you baked into hours. So now you're going to use that two hours to get it done. And now this applies to everything in your day. Something I do is I try to move with speed, not because I have something else that's coming behind it, but I don't want to be just getting by. I want to get ahead of it in hopes, my brain works out in hopes that if I can do it quick enough efficiently, then I'm going to have time to do something for myself with my wife or whatever else I want to do. My advice would be to shorten the allotment of time you give yourself to execute these tasks. People are resourceful. They'll get done what they have to if you set the time to be tighter than giving yourself more time. You're going to fit into whatever time allotment you give yourself. So put a little bit more pressure on yourself, be a little bit more unrealistic with yourself, and maybe you will enhance your performance. Do you ever think that sets you up for failure? Absolutely, but I kind of like failure. Yes, because it makes me improve what I'm doing. If I didn't fail, then I feel like people want perfection, but there is no such thing. And you don't get better just floating along. Oh, everything's perfect. You kind of need to fall on your ass a couple of times to go, oh, I could have done that better. I could have tweaked this. I could have put more attention and time and energy into this piece that I'd do. And I like failing because I realize it opens my eyes to things I missed the first time. Whenever anything works too fast, I feel like I miss out on an opportunity to learn something. And I know that sounds corny, but it's so true. So I like failing. I like failing because it makes me sharper than the person who it works for the first time. What was a big fail for you that you learned so much from? Early on in my management career with some of the artists I represented, starting with Papoose, it's not that I was a yes man. I was nervous to voice at the very beginning when I started managing him. This is going back 13, 14 years. In the very beginning, I was nervous to tell him when I knew he was wrong because I didn't want the opportunity to end. But because things kept going wrong and I wasn't opening my mouth, that was my cue to be vocal and be confident in telling him in private and in a respectful way. Like, listen, this idea you have is a yes and it's not going to work. And it's not how you should do business. And it's not how you should approach this partnership or this opportunity. And when I started speaking up, I regretted not speaking up earlier. So my biggest downfall was not having enough confidence early on to let my opinion and beliefs shine through, even though that was what he needed from me. And so I think having confidence, even if you're the new guy or girl in the room, is like a supreme quality to hone in on. How did you and Papoose even meet? How did this all come about and what made you want to be a manager? Papoose and I met when I was working with another underground artist who I went to college with at Towson University named Brahms, who's not an artist anymore. But we were living in Philadelphia at the time and we had this record and we wanted a New York MC to feature on it. So friends of mine were like, I know Papoose, I can get you in touch with him, but he's going to want to get paid to do the verse. And this is in 2010. So Pap came to Philadelphia. We negotiated a deal, took every last penny that we had saved up for him to do a feature, and he came down. And when he came down and did the verse, when he was leaving the studio, I stopped him because he was one of my favorite MCs. And I'm like, why'd you never put out your Nasrima Dream album with Jive Records? Why didn't you do it? And we started going back and forth and he was giving me the story. And I said, listen, man, let me manage you. And it was my first time, it was my first time saying out loud, like I could do something for you. I could help you get your project out. And I really didn't even know how. But I knew I had to kind of like step off that cliff. And he didn't say yes, but he gave me his phone number and I harassed him for six months. And I started pitching him like, why don't we try this? Why don't we try this? Let's let's release a song this way. And I started investigating into independent distribution. And at the time in Bruce Fontana, I'm like, I said, the major labels pap, you don't need them anymore. Let's distribute independently. You'll get a lion's share of the income and we'll own the records. This is going back to 2011. So it wasn't even cool to put out your album independently. And finally he's like, okay, cool. If you can get me a deal with them, I'll allow you to manage me and we'll start this. This is after six months of harassing him via text message. So I felt like a creep, but I was convinced that this was the right thing to do. Elevator version is he allowed me to start managing him. We ended up getting his debut album out. We turned a $20,000 production advance from a distribution company into hundreds of thousands of dollars. Amazing. We sold a lot of records for his debut project. We released it independently. He kept ownership of it. And that started a long history of pushing independence and him and I starting to build a professional working relationship. So that's how I started working with Papoose. What was it that was driving you to be so big on independence and just ownership? Early on you didn't have to. You could have just been like everybody else and just focusing on trying to get a deal from the regular corporation. But I feel like this through line is something that we see throughout your entire career. Ownership, independence. How did you know like, because thinking about this time period, I mean, now people are talking about that, right? But at that time, what made you even realize, okay, this is the key. This is how we really do things. In my head back then, the thought was a couple of things. It was, why is it so important for the major labels to own everything? If they're making so much money, then maybe we should function more like a major label and be focused on owning what the music we put out. That was thought one. Thought two was in order to get a major label deal, it's almost like you had to have huge success already or they weren't interested in working with you. So Papoose was in this weird intersection where he was a known artist, but at the time that I started working with him, he wasn't the hottest artist on the block. So they weren't going to give us an advantageous deal. So my thought process was, well, if the major labels are so hyper focused on owning all the music that they give deals to the artist for, then why shouldn't we want to own our own music? And once I understood that the splits heavily favor the artist when you distribute instead of doing a traditional record deal, it was a no brainer to me. Pap, you already have the fans. You already had a major label massive deal. You've had big records and features. There are fans out there. If we're going to get 80% of the income that comes in from an independent distributor, why wouldn't we want to get 80% instead of a 16 point artist royalty like the major labels are offering? You want to get 16 cents every dollar or do you want to get 80 cents every dollar? That was the thought process. And like I said, secondary to that was it's simple. Unless you were a superstar or the hottest new up and coming artist, the major labels didn't give you value. So I didn't want to waste time following up on our conversation earlier like pitching people. That's a waste of time. Right. Build a business, start somewhere. Maybe you make a thousand bucks this month, but in a year, maybe you're making 10,000. Right. Five years, you're making 50. I mean, like it takes time to build something valuable. And I was never scared of putting in the time and I did my best to convince and show the artists and partners I had that there is a fruitful path. If you're willing to put in time and make some sacrifices today and not get this flashy advance, which is really just a glorified bank loan anyways. That's it. Like you could build a business that they can't take away from you. And I kept seeing that too, that kind of, you know, detoured me from wanting to get major label deals with anybody I worked with was, okay, great, it could be good for today. And then the second you're not popular anymore, they also have control to shelve you and throw you to the side. Yep. And they do it. All the time. That's the norm. And so just observing, watching, you know, some of my favorites go through some of that struggle made me say to the people that I worked with, why would we even put ourselves in that position? Let's control our own narrative, control our own business. And at least if we fail, we either own the fail or we're going to own the majority of the win. And that was how I, you know, I started focusing on the ownership element of the entertainment industry overall. Who doubted you the most that it pushed you and it motivated you and meaning that this whole idea of working with artists or content creators, my parents, I know, I know, I know our parents, we love them. They love and rest in peace. My dad just passed away a month ago. I'm so sorry. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's that's been hard, but my parents, not that they didn't believe in me, I come from Long Island, so I went to a good school and I work around professional. I mean, my family is professionals in their career choices. So telling them you want to be in the music business, even more so the hip hop business, they're like, what the hell are you talking about? And you want to learn to earn money. Right. That was the thing. They were always so scared that I was going to be destitute and on the street somewhere because we had no connections to them. Because we had no connections to it. And so I think it was my parents worry for me. Of course. First, there was other people that helped motivate it too. I used everybody's doubt to like fuel my entire mission here, but it started with my parents going, what are you doing? Please just finish college and go get a job. You'll make good money. I just never interested in any of that. Right. So it starts with them. What about you? Who doubted me the most? I mean, you're sitting to the biggest hater I've ever known. No, I'm kidding. Not Katrina. I would say, I'm trying to think who's- Previous bosses at stations you've been at? Yeah. I think throughout my entire radio career, it's always been that. Yeah, Vanessa, before- Before that, maybe my parents are my biggest haters. See? I'm kidding. Not in that way, but- But not haters? I think they just wanted something that made sense and it looked stable, right? Like being a doctor, lawyer, an engineer, just seemed more stable of a life than me saying, hey, I want to go be in radio. I was going to UC Berkeley at the time. Oh, wow. And I was on an academic scholarship and I think for them, they're like, but like I thought you want to be a lawyer. And I was like, yeah, I want to be a lawyer because I hate the system and I want to fight for people. But then I realized like I'm in the system and I'm perpetuating it. But then I think to myself, I'm still in it and I'm still perpetuating it somehow. But I think like my drive has always been just doing it the way I want to do something. Right. And that was my drive because my parents worked so hard, kept their heads down, and I just saw how hard it was for them. So I was like, well, if it's going to be that hard, let me just do it the way I want to do it. There you go. Win or lose, at least I did it the way I wanted to do it. Hell yeah. It's still going to be hard. No matter what. No matter what. Even the traditional- Absolutely. Like we're actually like becoming a doctor or a lawyer is going to be like a walking apart. It's not. It's not. Surprise. You know, that's interesting because I always, I always felt like people were so disillusioned by what it takes to make it in this business. It's very much in line with a lawyer or a doctor's career path from, you know, right out of high school forward. You still got to go to college. You still have to spend all that time getting a degree. Then you got to go practice before you earn any real money. And then you finally get your legs under you and now you're a professional at 35, 40 years old, but it's no different for the entertainment business. Right. People want this like instantaneous solution, but it's never that. It takes so much time to really get a foundation set up. And no one wants to treat it like that in the outside world. They want it to seem impossible in entertainment, but it's the same commitment that a lawyer or doctor has to put into anything to become great at their craft. Katrina, what about you? Me? Not necessarily a doubter, but I remember just getting into this industry. Radio broadcasting. My mom, when I got to college, I got my degree in radio and TV. And as I was in, you know, in my studies, my mom was like, you sure you don't just want to be a nurse? Because you know what it is? It's again, part of the conversation is it's something they know. Right. They're familiar. They know that path. Right. They know where that, the kind of money that comes with that path. Stability. Security. And again, like you mentioned, doctors, lawyers, like the doctors go through their internships and their residency. So everyone goes through it. But these are paths that people understand. Right. They don't understand me interning at a studio right after my internship at the radio station, right after college. They don't understand that. They're like, what? So you're washing the dishes at this studio? Right. I'm like, yeah, I'm going on runs and buying whatever at the store. I'm getting sandwiches. I'm grabbing sandwiches. Whatever it is, they don't understand that part of this career path. Yeah. Wait, when did you intern? What studio was it in Oakland? It was 17 Hertz. So they had a lot of musical arts. So it wasn't a radio station. It was a recording studio. For music? For music. Because I was doing audio. So I was like, oh, let me try that out. Oh, good luck explaining that to your parents. Oh, absolutely. I'm coming up with all these. And that was like at 9 p.m. Because all the people wanted to record from 9 to whatever. Right, through the night. I'm going to 7-Eleven grabbing whatever I'm grabbing. And then I'm bringing it back to the studio. And they're like, all right, sit outside. I'm like, OK. I'm just sitting there waiting for my next instruction, making sure the dishes are clean and the garbage is taken out. And then I go to college, my college class of the next day, and then a different internship and a part-time job. It's just things that my parents didn't understand with my mom who worked in accounting and my dad who was in the Navy. Like they don't get this trajectory. They had square jobs in a good way. I respect it. But it's like explaining to my mom, like, Mom, I'm with Papoose. And we're with Lollipop. And we're going to go do this promo run. And then after we do the promo run, we're going to see how the record does. And she's like, Ian, how are you paying your rent this month? And it's like really speaking foreign when you talk to your parents. And it is intimidating. There were times I wouldn't even go home for months at a time. Because I don't want to say I was I was like embarrassed because I wanted it to work. I wanted to be I wanted to be able to support myself with music. I was just telling Julia on our walk. Yes, I was like, I remember my first $5,000 check from Universal. It was the first money I ever made in music. And it was so rewarding. Because it was genuinely from something I cared about. It wasn't waitering. It wasn't selling something. It wasn't working at some bullshit job that I didn't want to be at. It was doing what I loved. And it's not about the amount. It's about if I could do if I can make that little, then I can make more. I could do better. It's a starting point. And it's like any other profession. I mean, I have I have so much respect for this business, even though a lot of it's so up and dirty. Oh, yes. You know, but I. I'm glad I get to wake up and do something that motivates me. You know, because there's so many other things we could all be doing. Oh, yeah. That would be brain damage. Right, absolutely. In a much worse way. And I mean, you could also get a bigger check for it, but that's not what drives easily. By far easy. Easy. I like I wish people could understand that concept. It's, yeah, I could make more money doing something that I don't like. Oh, my God. Or compromising, you know, certain morals or like just certain outlooks that I might have. But, you know, this is the path I chosen despite those dark moments. It's like, oh, man, I'm so happy. I remember that first check. I was just telling Katrina, I remember working in radio early on, one of my first gigs, I think I was making $35,000. It was the biggest deal. I remember supporting yourself. Wow. Oh, my gosh. I remember signing that contract. No red line. Just like, what? You want me to what? Okay, cool. Who cares? I got it. You want my name? Cool. Yeah, I got the night show I'm on from six to 10 every night. I just remember those moments and it meant the world to me. But I still find those moments. Do you, as successful as you are now, do you still have those moments where like, wow, we did that. We just conquered that. Do you still feel that joy, that excitement? You know what it is. And it's not even, there was a phase where yes, the answer to your question is yes, I still feel it. What's interesting is that it's not even driven by finances anymore, like a big check. It's driven by, we conceptualize something, we talk through it, we plan it, and then we're able to execute it. Right. And when we execute it, it's like, I can't say this, but it's like giving birth. It's like, it's like my baby, it's a baby. It's something that we made. We came up with an idea. We made a plan for it. That's right. And then somehow it made it into the world, and I get to see it affect so many people. Like when I would go on tour, after we put together a project and I'd collaborate with the artists that I'm managing and working with, and then to go around the world and see people thanking the artist, thanking me, talking about how it impacted their life. There's something really special about that. Yeah. That is so much more valuable than the financial reward. That's right. And so I still do get excited. Now, on the flip side, I'll be honest and say, there are times it's harder to get that same rush. The littlest things used to give me that rush in the beginning. Oh my God, we're going on a road, we have four shows. I didn't even care about the nothing. Like now there are things I look at, I have to pinch myself, like this is your job. Come on, get into it, get excited. Because now I look at it and I'm a little more used to it. I have a little more callous to it. But yes, I get excited. But there are times where I have to remind myself what it is I do for a living. That's right. And this is what I always wanted to do, honestly. That's right. And so I'm grateful for that. And yeah, I get excited like a kid. I get to fly all over the place and work with people that I'm a fan of or look up to or have looked up to for a long time. And then on top of all that, there's been a lot of scenarios where I've been able to add value to those people. And that's really rewarding. I know you have a lot of clients and I know you won't pick who your favorite is unless you're willing to. Because it's like everyone's going to fight over you. But who is someone that you enjoy working with the most? Oh my God. Does everyone fight for your attention first off? Yes. Oh, as an artist manager, they'll never admit this. But I think they get jealous of where the time gets allotted. Like if I put more time into and I get this into a certain artist and the way they'll show that they're upset about it is very interesting. It's kind of like a scorned girlfriend. But I got to be careful of what I say. There are times where if I put too much time into any one artist, other artists and my other clients that I work with will show their frustration in ways that I think are similar to the way my wife would if I was not giving her enough attention. Now, your question was, who's my favorite? I don't have a favorite per se, but I love working with DJ Premier because he is the most down to earth artist person that I work with. He is the most frustrating too. But I love, I could have the most human conversations with him. And we have a connective tissue that is so deep that I really appreciate him for who he is and what he's taught me and opened me up to. However, I have a favorite quality for every single person I work with. And I have a different reason each of them are my favorite. I don't just take on clients for a check or because I see that I can make a lot of money with them. I work with people that I genuinely believe in. And so every one of them, I want to be around and I want to spend time with building and they all have this unique quality to them and this authentic thread, whether it's Michael Rappaport or Joe Budden or DJ Premier or Royce or Remy or Brady Watt. Like it's something very authentic about each of them that they're pros and craftsmen, but they are all unapologetically themselves. And that is why I work with them. And I feel like the reason I work with them is because I'm unapologetically myself and I feel like I'm an acquired taste. I don't just sit behind a desk. I'm very much involved and hands-on and abrasive with my style. So I need the artist I work with to also be abrasive. For sure. That makes sense. Yeah, it's like the friction makes the spark work. And that's how we kill it together. But yes, I'm not saying DJ Premier is my favorite, but there's something. He's your favorite. I love Primo. I met you with Primo. This is a long time ago. It was years ago at Hot 97. And he was so sweet and kind. Absolutely. And I think like he was so shocked that I was so into the interview, but I'm like, do you know who you are? No, he doesn't know who he is. You're a legend in an icon. No, he doesn't. No, he doesn't. And that's the thing, Ness. But there's something so comforting about being around somebody who doesn't allow that to overpower just being a good person. Oh, yeah. I love that. And I've learned it's frustrating for me to be around that sometimes because I'm like, Primo, no, put your foot down about certain things. Just please stop letting them walk on you when he could put his foot down and he could shake the ground. But he is something about his kindness that speaks louder. And and I'm learning from him. Yeah, it's different. It is different. It's amazing. And you know, to be in this game for such a long time, you don't come across icons and just legends who treat you like a human being and are nice and kind. And so like seeing him do things, seeing him win. I don't know. It's just a testament that good people can win in such a, you know, people in the world do win. Yes. Sometimes it gets hard to feel that way though, because when you are a good person, the the road is longer when you're doing it the right way. Right. And so sometimes you're like, gosh, well, like, why isn't it happening for me? And I remember this early on in my career. I oh, I'm not a fan of comparison. I always say, don't compare yourself to another person's journey. Just just focus on what you're doing. Right. Just stay on course. Yeah. But it's so easy to get distracted when you see other people doing well, they're getting paychecks or living well. And you're just like, when is this going to pay off? Does that bother you when you see people in your field? Let's call it broadcast. Broadcast. And you're like, see something a little more like fickle and salacious, overshadowing your efforts. Does that bother you? It doesn't bother me because I know it will end. I know that's a really mean thing to say, but I've seen it, you know, 18 years now, 19 years of doing this, those quick wins that you think are going to be forever, nothing's forever. Nothing's forever. So you might as well build a solid foundation and be good with that and know that like, oh, that's your hard earned work. If anything, I just don't like when someone tries to get in our way. Don't get in my way, trying to sabotage my work because you think me losing means you winning. It's not true. You win, great. I win, that means I win. That has nothing to do with your wins or losses. That's right. And it's really hard sometimes for people to understand that. Like someone else's success doesn't determine your failures. Have you ever had, you don't come off to me as confrontational like we see some other media personalities, but have you ever had media beef? I think with the NFL, I think I've reserved all of my energy, you know, just with them, black ball and Colin, you know, I think for me, it's always been like systemic things that I've always had more issues with, like in that regard. But like media beefs, I don't really, what are we going to argue about? Like my opinions are my opinions. You might not like them, but at the end of the day, my opinions is not going to hinder you from eating, sleeping, and all these great things that your life has. But I think for me, the only time, not only time, I'm sure there's been, but I would say in recent more years, it's like the NFL, right? Yeah, but here's the thing. My question is, when you had to stand up for what you felt was wrong with the entire Colin situation in the NFL, is it because you experienced that type of systematic problem with your own career? Or is it because he's your significant other, and you just felt the need to be vocal about what you saw being done that was wrong? I think both. So for me, knowing that systemic racism exists, it exists. Obviously, different ways of how it's perpetuated, we see it happen all the time. Before meeting Colin, I went to UC Berkeley, I don't know how much knowledge you know on California schools and universities, but UC Berkeley is in Berkeley next to Oakland, where social movements have been birthed out of. So for me, I have always been connected to it. I cared about it, being a lawyer, wanting to help people. Me wanting to see people do good is all, and really taking a step to do what needs to happen has always been in me. Now, it's just, I'm really lucky to have to do what I do, to give back the way I do, but meeting someone who gets it. And so when I met Colin, it was just a matter of us being enhancing one another and what we do, but I think it's a combination of both. Because it's like, okay, so we know racism is bad, we know that police brutality is bad, we see it happening, right? And so when you have someone who's peacefully protesting against it, and then being punished for it, you're perpetuating everything that you're saying, either you don't believe or you do believe, right? Because now you're painting and racism in the end zone. So which one is it? Right. So I think for me, now we add another layer, oh, it's the hypocrisy behind it, right? So it just, it's like a sandwich. You saw the politics behind the whole thing. I saw the politics. And I think for me, I think I was naive in it. I just really think I saw things from a lens of like, well, of course that's wrong, we should all care. Right. And I think that was naive on my part. Realizing that everybody's gonna care. And this is always spoken just in an unjust room. Like she will always speak up for everyone around her, she might not do the best speaking up for herself. But if she sees, doesn't always come out great, guys. I've gotten people that hate it on me, and before I could even say anything, Nessa is like, nope, that's not, that's not what we're gonna do. She'll pick on you, but if anyone else picks on you. It's a problem. Right. I got it. It's a problem. I'm the same way. 100%. And she will always stand up for what she knows is right. So, you know, that's always been Nessa. So I think it's like the multiple layers of it. And then it's just the audacity to double down and do that to him. It was just, what? Did that rock your world? I changed everything for us. Like, I mean, Katrina was there firsthand. I mean, be it death threats, be it just the unease of like life, right? But take death threats out. Seeing Colin do something that he has earned, right? He's been playing football since he was eight years old. And to see that he's gone to the Super Bowl, he's gone to two NFC championship games back to back. This, like we're talking about such a small percent of someone with his talent, the fourth Black quarterback to ever play in the Super Bowl, right? That people... A world-class athlete. And to see that be taken from him because he did something because he cares about other people. And that's what he said. He said it time and time again. Like, look at the privilege that I have. Look what I'm doing. This isn't for me. He's saying it literally time and time again. And I felt like, why couldn't he have done both? Why couldn't he have cared and said, hey, we have a problem here that needs to be addressed and I'm going to use my platform at the same time. Hey, I'm still a football player who has a career that's earned it. So I think seeing all of that was really just heartbreaking. Like it was just, I know how much he loves football. He still gets up every day at 430, he still trains. He still tries to contact his team. And it's the same responses. And he's just not... He's very opposite of me. He's okay. You think what you think about him. He's at peace because he knows what he did is right. He seems like such a peaceful man. Oh my God. Super Zen. And me, I'm like, wait, you're not, wait. You're not raging. You're not losing your mind. He's like, I know what I did. I know why I did it. And I'm like, what? And I'm like, let's go fight. And he's like, you know how I fight? I get up, I get ready, and I'm hoping for that opportunity to open. I'm like, God, why are you such a good person? I hate this right now, but I've learned much along the way, but him working so hard for his career. And I love what I do so much. I can't imagine somebody taking that away from me. And maybe that's also part of it, right? Like, I'm like, oh my God, like how? I have a question. Yeah. In hindsight, do you think he could have handled it in a different way that would have got the result he wanted and not the results that he didn't want? I thought, actually, I've thought it long and hard about it. I think what was stacked against Colin, he was the first at this time in this specific league. I don't think anything he could have done that would have stopped them from blackballing him. He peacefully protested. He was sitting behind a cooler. Nobody even knew he was protesting until the third pre-season game. Until the media really jumped in. Until the media got in. So if we never knew, I didn't know until the media. That's the fun fact nobody ever... Well, he never said anything to you about... No. He never said like, babe, I'm going to go... No, I'm working in New York. I'm a hot 97 with Katrina. Colin is playing for the 49ers. I don't see pre-season games, so I wouldn't know one way or another. So Colin is on his own. He's watching how things are happening, right? At this time, Alton Sterling gets killed. It's a brutal summer with police brutality is happening. And Colin at this point has already been reading more, off-season. And he's just kind of like, you want to evolve in life. That's the key. So he's just... And now it's happening. And look, social media at this time, things are heightened more. We're seeing it more. And I didn't know. There was no conversations. None. Katrina, you heard the conversation. I was there when he called her and was like, hey, so... I was like, a reporter saw me do something today. She was like, what would you do? Yeah, I was like, no, I even think of it. And he was like, oh, yeah, I was just sitting there. I was just sitting. A reporter asked me about... But he didn't hint, like, oh, this is going to be something. No, he actually didn't think it was. Like literally the next day I had a backpack giveaway. It was in South Bronx. And he just, you know, I was going about my day and he told me that. And he was like, yeah, the reporter came up to me and just asked. It was so very, hey, that's it. This happened. This happened. And then like, we move on in the conversation. Like, oh, okay, what does that mean? Like, okay, all right. Calls out thinking it's going to be what it turned into at all. Our lives changed that next morning once the media was out. It's never been the same since. So I think for me, I'm always rooting for, like, in general, just the underdog. So seeing that with Colin, you know, and I know media. Right. And I know... You are media. Right. And I feel like, okay, so we have a moment in our life right now to take the right side of history that's going to be documented for the rest of our lives. 100%. What side do we want to be on? Not just because it's like document. It's the right side. Whatever I feel, whatever I say, I'm going to stand on it. So I think it's never been the same. And that's the power of media and like work and... Like I said, could I make more money? Could I do this? All I had to do was like exploit Colin or our relationship. I never did. I never have. And it all goes back to like, what do you want to do in life? How hard do you want to work? And, you know, when you and your wife decide like, hey, maybe Ian, you need to slow down a bit. Maybe I don't see that happening for you. But, you know, you'll be like, you'll be like, you know what? What has... What... All the work I've done, what does it mean to this point? Where do I stand? Scary questions. It's a big question. Scary. And I think Colin just fast forwarded. He was already evaluating those things. That's right. I'm going to make a prediction. I think Colin will end up being a head coach on a professional team. Yeah, 100%. I do. I hope so. Either a professional team or at a very big college university. He has way too much knowledge, experience. Yeah. He knows, he's just so good at what he does. And he has this outer world experience that no one else has. Absolutely. That puts him in a very good position to take on a leadership role. I would love to see him play, but let's just... That makes me happy. Wait, say it again, Ian. Hold on. I would love to see him play. I really would. Oh, my heart. I feel... I can't for the life of me understand why not one NFL team has, for sake, I mean, even from a business standpoint. Yes. Forget everything else. Forget absolutely everything else. Why hasn't a single NFL team put him in a jersey, even if he's not going to play? It would be the biggest ticket sale that the NFL has seen ever. Yes. So it doesn't make any sense to me in that regard, but I don't know enough about it, not about his situation. I support what he did, but also I don't understand what politics are behind it that aren't made public, right? And I'll double down. I really do believe that if not playing, he would be an amazing addition and value add to any NFL team as a coach or a university. And I know it'll happen. That's just a matter of time. Man, you made my heart happy. I'm very sensitive. Oh, my God. But it really means a lot because, you know, for... You know, Katrina knows this. When you're in it, it feels like it's dark, right? Like it feels like, oh, my gosh, this is... It's nonstop. It's not... When the media's on you. It's it. That's it. They're on you. And it's this weird looking over your shoulder thing where it's like, what is going to happen? Where does the cookie crumble? Where does everything land? Because it feels like there's so much on you. And I can't imagine for the reasons that you and Colin were under it for, but it's just this uncomfortable feeling. Oh, all day. I couldn't imagine what was going on behind closed doors in terms of dynamic conversations. I mean, what an interesting, unique thing that you guys went through. And I give you a lot of credit because you handled it with such class. You guys handled it with class. You and Colin handled it with class. But you guys handled it with class in the media. Right. We tried our best. And you were a warrior. Like you're not... You weren't afraid. No. And you know what? Bridges have been burned. And I'm okay with that. And that's okay. Sometimes bridges have... Sometimes you have to burn things down to rebuild bigger. That's right. And that's okay. And I'm so okay with it. I look back. I told Katrina, hey, man, sorry, I probably could have got you a house if I, you know, Colin losing out on over $150 million on his contract. These things are real life. That's real life. It's real life. Like he was making decisions that... Generational decisions. Generational wealth decisions. And he had to question, is this about money? Or is this about the things I believe in? That's right. And because of that, I respect his character. Yeah. People don't have to agree with what he did. But most of those people that disagree have not been faced with the decisions that he had, which is like, I can continue on this professional baller path. And change my family's, family's, family's, family's future. And my friends and everyone around me. And not to say that he still won't. I mean, that's where I think he is an elite person is that some people, all they have is that thing. And then other people believe in themselves so much and know their strengths that they're going to end up doing it tenfold, maybe doing something else. And I believe for Colin, that's still to come. Oh, I'm so... That's cool. You made me heart so happy. And I told Colin, I was going to have this conversation with you. And Colin, you know, he's so supportive. He's like, oh, great. So what are you guys going to talk about? And he's, I was like, well, this is like, it's about you. And I was telling him about all the stuff that you do. And he was like, you know, you can maybe get some wisdom. Because I think for me, I'm always the wisdom person in the room. Sorry, Katrina, but you know, I'm the go to person. He's like, oh, this is going to be good for you. I know, like, I love hustler energy. Oh, yeah. And it's really hard to come across that. And we're like the unicorns in the room. And we're like stand out and people think we're annoying and weird and too aggressive. It's my Aries energy. It's just like I constantly want to go. I'm constantly optimistic and shooting for something higher. Yes. And I don't know what it is. I can't help it. I don't know what it is. I can't stop it. I don't know. And I'm going to keep going. Hell yeah. When you, when we're talking about the media and knowing how impactful it is, how is it working with Joe? You guys are partners. Yes. Right. And obviously we see Joe, you know, he's always trending. So how has it been for you? Did it make you realize even more the power behind media? Yes. Yeah. Joe, working with Joe is amazing. He is so abrasive, so fearless. Yeah. And sometimes in the media world that lands us in such hot water. It really does. Yeah. But it's also encouraged me to stop giving a what everyone thinks. And that's been a superpower for us is as long as we believe in what we're doing. Yeah. And we know we're on a certain path, who cares what everyone thinks? Yeah. Yeah. Everyone else doesn't dictate our success or failure. Yeah. And working with him is not easy because not only is he incredibly intelligent, but he's controversial. And he doesn't care to say how he feels regardless of whose feelings it may hurt. Even if he's never out maliciously trying to hurt somebody, but he's not afraid to say how he feels. And in our business, now say you know this Katrina, you know this, people protect so much of these relationships, so nauseating. It's disgusting. It's gross. Yes. And I get it. I get you want to protect this dream of business and this dream of big things happening. But the truth is no one really cares about you that way anyway. So you're protecting nothing. Facts. You're not protecting anything. And Joe has this creative genius to him, this producer eye. He's like the ultimate A&R for content creation. Yeah. Like he just knows chemistry better than anyone I've ever met before. And he is not afraid to put in the work. And you know how you and I are talking about like that hustler mentality. Now I switch off a preem and I go to Joe. Joe is the hardest working person I've ever been privileged to work with. That makes me happy. He's always on time. He's always the last one in the room. He's always willing to put in a hundred thousand percent effort. And that's why we are here where we are today is because we've put these ideas together. Then we've had to put plans in place to actually bring it to life. And then on top of all of those planning phases, he executes. He sits there and goes, okay, how do we make this look the best? How do we make this come out the best? He is a madman, has a work ethic that is unmatched in this business. And sometimes we end up in hot water. But at least we end up in hot water. At least we're not sitting there stagnant waiting for something to land in our lap. And for that, I'm forever appreciative for him. And I love working with Joe. Like we're going to change the world together in media. We are ready. I mean, it already began. It already began. Thank you. It already began. I feel so weird bragging about it, but then I'm like, no. We've worked our asses off and we changed the landscape of, I mean, podcasting, but not. It's like we're a multimedia company now and there's things coming that haven't been announced and haven't been made public yet that is going to continue to evolve what creators should think about themselves and think about doing themselves that used to be a thing you had to be hired to do. That's forward and more pushing towards that. You could do all this yourself. That's right. You know, like how we talked, like where does this independent mentality come from? It comes from believing in ourselves and believing that, well, if the companies value that, why can't we act like the company? Right. You know, Joe is, I'm a Howard Stern junkie, by the way, and Joe hates when I keep comparing the two, but I'm a Stern junkie. My first ever big interview that was with the New York Times, this is back in 2017 or 18, it was with, they interviewed me, they interviewed the podcast at the time, and I think they ended up, after they spoke to me, they ended up titling it. Joe Budden is the Howard Stern of hip hop media. Oh gosh. And I love that because I am a junkie. I go to sleep every night listening to Stern to this very day. To this very day? To this very day. Oh, you're committed. I'm committed. 30 minutes a night. He's an icon. He's an icon. He's the best. And you know what? I just love that he made broadcasts so interesting. I feel a part of the Stern family. And I know that that's what we're doing with the Joe Budden podcast is we have an army of people out there that feel like they know each and every one of the Joe Budden podcast universe and personalities. And that's magic. I don't know. I just feel, I feel happy that I'm a part of something so special. So he's so hardworking. How does he have time to go to his strip clubs? Like seriously, like seriously, at this point, like is he working like this? Is he working off his phone? Is he like, okay, Ian, hold on. Let me send you this call. Oh, wait, no, don't clap. How do you know about his strip club? He posts it. Yes, it's true. I mean, don't be with your kid on Instagram and going through the story and you accidentally come across Joe's. He's at his strip club. You're like, wait, don't let him turn it off. I always show them to Julie and I'm like, oh, Joe had a good night and it's just some nice girl's ass bouncing in front of my screen. We're wearing fishnets and you're like, okay, what's that? Right next to our, right next to a brand integration we have. I'm like, all right, and there we go. Where does he find the time? Joe, the strip club is inspiration for Joe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've also seen him eat a piece of cake, chocolate milk and sit on his phone and write treatments at the strip club for work we have to do. And the strippers come up to us and Joe will respectfully shoo them away because he's working. He likes the energy of the strip club. It inspires him. Yeah, it's very Joe. I mean, he's been. You've known Joe, come on. Yeah, he's been about that life. And he's very open about it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been to many strip clubs with Joe and. Can you work in the strip club? Like, can you get your laptop out and like start? I don't know. Do they have Wi-Fi? Do they have Wi-Fi? Some of the strip clubs I've been to with Joe actually serve full meals and I'm like, what the hell is going on here? And it's probably delicious. Yeah. The ones I've been to with him have decent food. Okay. I don't feel comfortable eating in the strip club. I never understood the concept. Like there's beautiful naked women everywhere and you're sitting eating cheesecake and a chocolate milk. I don't understand what's going on. It's chocolate milk. It's so good. But, but. It's inspiration. Right, I guess so. That's, that's Joe's inspiration. Maybe we should try. Well, we should try this. Would you guys wouldn't do a girls field trip to a strip club? I think we could. Have you ever been either of you? Yeah, we have Wi-Fi. We've been together. Yeah, we've been in many strip clubs, but. It doesn't do it for you? Yeah, it doesn't really do. It's inspiring. For you too? Well, it's inspiring to see everyone trying to get money. Like it's like, oh, wow, we're in it. Like let's go hustler mentality. But it's not, like the music is probably like when, yeah, I don't know if we'll find inspiration. Inspiration to work on our bodies to, you know, get on the treadmill, hop on the elliptical machine. That's an inspiration. It makes you want to like. I'm like, damn. Get your norder or something physically. Or maybe get ozempic because Kachin is talking me out of it. Get the oz. Get the oz. Nessa. We need a little oz. Have we really come down to this in our culture that we're stabbing ourselves with tens to lose weight? Yes. Our culture is instinct. I haven't done it, but yeah. I'm kidding, maybe. But listen, do you want to go on the elliptical? No. Tell Ian right now when's the last time we went to the gym. The gym? Probably to watch Colin work out. You go to watch him work out? I'm going to watch him work out. Yeah. Oh, Colin's working out. Yeah, go, go. You ask him to do enough work out for all of you? Can I tell you a funny story? Just really quick, last Colin story, I promise, because I, okay. I like talking about Colin. Colin is great. So we, he used to work out a lot at Chelsea Piers. And he would have different people be like, Hey Colin, you know, what are you doing? Can I come work out with you? And they can't even keep up in his warm up. I've seen many people throw up during the warm up. And I'm like, okay, you're going to have a long day. Yeah. How long does he work out for? Oh my gosh, he is, he's up at 430. He's probably at the gym about 530 because he likes to stretch. He does his protein shake. He has a routine, 530. He doesn't get back until about like nine. What? And then he goes straight into his meetings, like he daily meetings. Colin is very structured. Very regimented. Extremely, two to the minute. Oh, time to go get my lunch. Are you late to anything, Nessa? I used to be, but because of Colin, I'm not. Katrina, what about you? Me. All the time. I'm not late to the radio show. I'll tell you that. Yeah. You're habitually late to things? I'm late, but habitually late to things. They say late people are smarter. That's not true. I'm so late. I don't believe it because I'm never late. I'm not all the time. There's absolutely no way. You know, it depends. They say late people are less stressed. They live longer and they're smarter. There we go, baby. I know. Doesn't do much for you and I, but. Wait, can I tell you, Ian, she was a spelling bee champ. Because I'm late. She is smart. Maybe she is smarter than me. I'm a little bit smart. Yeah, I know. I can tell she's smart. Katrina's very smart. I guess. Nessa, not that you're not smart, but you and I are like the hustlers. Yeah, we'll work hard. We're like workhorses. Exactly. And here's the thing. Katrina probably is substantially smarter than me, but she will never outwork me. No way. Ever. And that is why I have to take care of her. That's exactly why. You guys are a team. We're a team. You compliment each other, guys. It's just like this. Yeah. I like it. Do you have any input when Joe was putting a team together, speaking of teams? Yes. A lot? Yes. But what if he's like, Ian, I don't care what you have to say right now. I believe. We disagree all the time, but we disagree and come to solutions that make sense. And there's reasoning behind it. Like there are things Joe will suggest. And I'll be like, great idea, but the approach or the strategy that you're telling me, I don't think is going to work. And I mean, I'm not using those exact words. Sure, sure. But we have our discussions and we disagree all the time. However, we're eight years in now. And I think we agree on a lot more than we disagree on. And when you say eight years, as far as like... I've been managing Joe for eight years. We've been business partners for many years on many different projects. And yeah, I have a lot of input on all the decisions that are made. I mean, there are certain things I steer clear of because it's his producer brain that needs that freedom to... Sure. ...to creatively put things together. But in terms of infrastructure, the business, how things are organized, partnerships, I have equal input as he does. Because I think we have built something really special together and our minds complement each other. Where he lacks, I make up, where I lack, he makes up. And we've learned to really respect each other's input. That's great. Do you feel like, because it's been a learning process, you guys are building something from the ground up, there's no blueprint for what you guys have built. No, not yet. You guys are the blueprint. We are. And so... I think so. Absolutely. And so, obviously it's not going to be perfect. There's going to be times that you guys didn't do things right or you guys over-achieved or whatever it is. Do you feel like, because Joe's more of the face, obviously of the pod, he gets more of the wrap of like, you guys, the building stages. You're like, dang, we weren't great here. We weren't, we didn't get this part right. Meaning, meaning what, like he gets, he'll get the... He gets the, you know, short end of it because he's the face of it. Yes. Yeah. I feel like they don't give Joe enough credit for a lot of the great stuff that he's been at the precipice of building. I think he's influenced an entire culture of people to look at the content business differently than they would have if he didn't exist. I agree. Like, I think Joe showed creators that existed already and people that were soon-to-be creators that there's a different path other than what they're telling you. And I'm now going to show you how to do it, win, fail, or lose. And you could either follow me, you could bash me for it, or you could agree and try it yourself. But when things go wrong, there's extra attention on Joe doing it incorrectly because he's the only one doing it like that. So in this world of everyone having these big deals and these exclusive partnerships and selling off their rights, us being in this independent movement, there's extra attention on the things we do. When we do something, it affects the rest of the industry. Because then creators look at it and go, oh, should we entertain that? Or this is why Joe's wrong and f*** him for suggesting it. Because everyone's situation is not like Joe's, but he's putting you onto game. The things we do are hopefully putting you onto different paths so that could help you. We're hoping that we could help paint a blueprint. Now, I don't think we sit there and say, this is the blueprint. We've never done that. But I know that this is going to be looked at. And there's some weird feeling I have that this is going to be looked at as the way to set up an infrastructure if you don't want to go the archaic traditional route. But I think you guys are already doing it. And I think more people know it and maybe they're not saying it enough. They don't like to give us. Here's the other thing. They'll f*** on him extra hard. They'll f*** on me extra hard when things go wrong. But they won't credit us when things go right. Absolutely not. No. No one wants to cheer you on. Let's be honest. We do. Yeah, we do. Well, you do. Yeah, we will see. Because your wins doesn't determine any of my losses. I was going to say that. Your win actually gives me, oh, we all can win. Boom, let's go. Or maybe vice versa. Like there are things I see that you guys do that I'm like, oh, we should implement that. Like I look at it as we're helping each other. Exactly. Why the f*** is it so selfish and crab in a barrel type of mentality? Like if I'm not out of the barrel, let me pull you in. No one wants to educate or inform anyone. Everyone just wants to beat people down because they feel so low about themselves. Yeah. You know what, too, you put out this tweet that I thought was really interesting. You were talking about Shannon Sharpe's interview with Cat Williams. I got killed for that. You got a lot of heat for that. I got killed for that. But I was reading it and you're not telling anybody how to do anything. You're just saying imagine. You just said imagine. This interview that got 48 million views in two days was behind a subscription platform. That was it. You just said imagine. Speaking about the kind of… Katrina, go take one more step back. I said, what an amazing accomplishment for Shannon Sharpe. Big up. I big up Tim first. Absolutely. And then I said, can you imagine what would have happened if this content was behind a paywall? I saw a whole think piece on YouTube banging on you for that comment and then banging on the rest of the pod and what's happened in the past. I'm a culture vulture. What just happened? All he said was, can you imagine what's going on? There's a word imagine. Yeah. He's not saying he should have done it this way. And tear him down. Like I think that's different, but it's not. You didn't tear him down. But you know what it was, Nessa? They heart because I'm white. They make it a shut the up about black culture. I'm like, what the are you talking about? I was just speaking on an alternative scenario that could have been explored. I didn't say he should have done it. I just said, can you imagine what would have happened if those 48 million views had to be driven to a subscription service? Shannon Sharp also said he made more money off that interview with Cat Williams than he's ever made in any single year of his football career. Okay. There we go. Imagine. Okay. So now that you just said, look what's happened to me. All I'm saying is what if you would have had all the information from every single one of those people that wanted to check out the interview, then what would it have been worth? I'm not mad at what he did. It obviously worked. It's a huge win for creators across the board. Great job. I'm blown away by the results. But my tweet, my question still stands. Can you imagine what would have happened if that was behind a subscription service? That's it. And I think also you're coming from the point of content creators, how much they can make as far as a living by creating such great content. No one believes in themself. Everyone is, our business is filled with a bunch of insecure creators and workers that are looking for a guaranteed check. No one wants to address this, but it's the absolute truth. We are so used to chasing down advanced checks and chasing down these exclusive deals. Yeah. That no one wants to put in the effort to build a business from zero dollars to own the business themselves and grow it. So what you have is a bunch of followers that run around bashing anyone with an alternative idea like me. Because my, they go, oh, it worked for you. Doesn't mean it's going to work for me. Well, no, sure. You're right. Obviously it's not going to work for everyone. No, it may not work for you. But guess what? You going to get an exclusive deal isn't going to work for you either. Right. So what would you rather put your time and energy into? Something you own. That's my theory. And it's not, I'm not asking you to follow me. I'm not asking you to, you don't have to listen to me. Right. But knock, knock that I've done worked. Right. And I'm just giving you my experience. I've done exclusive deals too. And I'm telling you, I, after having experience doing all of them, this is what I think holds the most value. And if nothing else, it's game, it's free game. Do you know that is so valuable? Like I always say, listen, it's not about that money. It's not about that paycheck all the time. Yes, it's important. We all have to make living. But when someone shares game, knowledge, resources. That's everything. It's everything. It's worth more than the check. There it is. I wish earlier on in my career, people would have pushed me in the direction I'm in now. Right. And have been going after for many years. Because it would have, it would have reassured me that I was onto the right thing. It would have gave me the confidence I needed to keep pushing. I like, there were a lot of times early on in my career, I doubted myself because I'm like, I'm not making any money. Right. My parents are asking me what the hell I'm doing. I don't know how I'm going to pay rent. And what artist is going to buy into this independent ideology I have. And how to construct and operate your business. If I haven't done it yet. Right. But all I really needed was someone that had done it before saying it's okay. It's going to work. So that's why now I'm so proactive on the social side to share my thoughts. Because I feel like somebody out there that is going to be bigger than me one day is watching. And I want to be the one to show them, oh, it could happen this way. You don't need to go that other way. You don't need that big Spotify deal or that big Apple deal. You could do this out of your bedroom with minimal to no costs. So long as you're determined and resilient and you believe in yourself and you could stay consistent. This is all possible. It's not a pipe dream. And I say it because we've done it. We weren't, we had no money in the beginning with Joe in the podcast. We didn't have money to do this. We just shoe strung it together step by step until we were able to make it bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And I use that same template for all the artists, all the creators, everyone I work with. I don't like taking those major deals. And I don't. All my artists are independent in a healthy way. They all are learning about ownership. I'm not just practicing it myself. I teach them the things that I know will work for them so that at least they operate that way in the future. I think it's helpful. Like you said, I think that information sharing is everything. Did Joe doubt any of the success in the beginning during the building stages? And you're like, no, you got to believe in it. Yes. And he's like, what? It's not that he doubted it. He wasn't in a financially free enough place to wait to see if it would work. He would be combative with me in the early stages when I got excited that we made $30 in a month on YouTube. And I'm like, but you don't understand, Joe. If we do 10 times this, then it's 300 bucks. And if we do 10 times that in a couple of months, it's 3000. And then if we can get it to 30,000, we'll shit, then we're paying a shit ton of bills and we're able to fund our creations. He's like, Ian, I need to feed myself this month. Let's get a deal in. And so we've had these, we've had our, we've had our moments where we butt heads, of course. Um, but Joe's a smart guy and I think conceptually he agreed with the way I wanted to go about it. I just think there were times when if it didn't come fast enough, we would have frustrating moments with each other. But we fought through them. Most humans, most humans. Most of us would. Most of us. I don't blame him. I would have been yelling at me too. Yeah. So it's fine. Where can people continue following the great advice? I mean, I stalk your page because it's so positive and I love positive in my day. Good. So you have launched like now a new series where you get to just share all this great information. So is it only going to be on your Instagram or are you going to take it further? I have plans to do things to further it right now. It's on my Instagram and on Twitter. It's called roll call. And then they could also visit a roll call recap.com, which gives you like information about each of the episodes manuscript so that you could see what's written out that I said in each episode. And I just feel like anywhere where I could share information and help empower somebody that gives a shit about the business that we all operate in, I'm happy to do it. And I hope it helps them in their journey. I hope it grows. Thank you. I really do. I know it will. Information always works. Every time. That's it. See, Katrina, you really need to like start taking notes. Katrina, can you please wake up earlier? Can you look like, what is going on? I got to cut my two hour time block for social clips. How do you let her get all these jabs off? It's crazy because you should see how she treats me behind the scenes. I figure. Once you guys leave, she's going to get it. You guys are awesome. Thank you Ian for being here. I love that you had me up here. Yeah. Thank you for being here and like, you know, showing up. I love your set. I love the show. I want to compliment your social clips. Oh, congratulations on your book with Colin. Thank you. Congratulations on your baby. Yes. I know. And congratulations on just starting something that's special. It has all the ingredients to be a really successful show. And keep doing the breakdowns you too. Specifically on Instagram with the graphic text captioning. It's really engaging and just going through the Instagram alone, which I think is going to be the next big way content creation is consumed, which is in bits and pieces. Yeah. Like people want on demand. This is what I want to see today. This is what I want to learn about this little clip talking about prioritizing time by significant other. Making sure Katrina wakes up early enough to get all the work done. At some point. All that stuff is really good. I love your dynamic. It's really cool. No, Ian, it's a pleasure. It's an honor. Thank you for having me. I literally was like, I'm just going to ask if you want to come up and have a conversation. And when you were so gracious with your time. I ran here from Queens. I told Colin, I was like, oh my God, he's going to do it. I was really happy. Like I just love great conversations with great people who are just hustlers and who just move different. We're hustlers. And just against the system. Yes. The system. Yes. The system. We are the system. Let's go. Hell yeah. And we need to help each other out. That's it. The beauty is I respect your craft. I respect what you guys are doing. If anybody here ever wants to just collaborate, ever wants to throw ideas against the wall together, I want that to be the way people look at me. Because that's how great things happen. So that's an open invitation to everyone here. Please feel free. Thank you. And thank you for having me on. Thank you. Of course. Thank you. Until Colin, he's the best. He is. Yes.